Ill start off by saying I love lichess. It is hands down the best site for playing chess. No one else comes even close. But i did not appreciate the way they got involved in ALLEGATIONS of sexual misconduct. Those are legal matters that need to be resolved in a court of law, not by lichess. The complete and utter disregard for the consequences of damaging a person's reputation over allegations that have not been proven beyond a reasonable doubt is completely unacceptable. Thank you for your time.
So in your house everyone can do what he likes to do?
See the chess world as a bit like a place of work. Those who are part of it need to feel that it is a safe environment. If there are multiple allegations of sexual misconduct against someone at the workplace, managers must take action for the safety of everyone.
If the person is actually innocent of what they are alleged to have done, this is indeed a terrible situation. Their innocence and their former status will need to be established by judicial court or industrial tribunal. But that takes time, and a dangerous situation cannot be allowed to carry on while we wait.
In the case I think you are referring to, this all translates to making sure that women and girls feel that the chess world is a safe, welcoming environment and that sexual misconduct is taken extremely seriously.
If the person is actually innocent of what they are alleged to have done, this is indeed a terrible situation. Their innocence and their former status will need to be established by judicial court or industrial tribunal. But that takes time, and a dangerous situation cannot be allowed to carry on while we wait.
In the case I think you are referring to, this all translates to making sure that women and girls feel that the chess world is a safe, welcoming environment and that sexual misconduct is taken extremely seriously.
@Brian-E Thanks for taking the time to respond. All crimes, including sexual assault, should be taken seriously. The issue is that Lichess is not the proper place to decide who is and isn't guilty. Imagine if someone who is jealous of Magnus decided to claim publicly that he groped them in the bathroom during a tournament; no proof, just an allegation. It might even be multiple people who decide they want to bring Magnus down and make this claim to a newspaper. It wouldn't be right for Lichess to ban Magnus over such allegations. Now if Magnus was declared guilty in a court of law then absolutely I would support any reasonable adverse actions against him.
You write, "Their innocence and their former status will need to be established by judicial court or industrial tribunal."
Actually, in over 70% of the world the burden of proof is on the accuser, not on the accused. It is guilt that needs to be established beyond a reasonable doubt (the legal term is "presumption of innocence".) Taking adverse actions against someone based on mere allegations is obviating that important principle.
You write, "Their innocence and their former status will need to be established by judicial court or industrial tribunal."
Actually, in over 70% of the world the burden of proof is on the accuser, not on the accused. It is guilt that needs to be established beyond a reasonable doubt (the legal term is "presumption of innocence".) Taking adverse actions against someone based on mere allegations is obviating that important principle.
@hangmysack said in #4:
> Brian-E Thanks for taking the time to respond. All crimes, including sexual assault, should be taken seriously. The issue is that Lichess is not the proper place to decide who is and isn't guilty.
If this is true, then can't the victim just call the police? It's the victim's responsibility to ensure that the accused faces some sort of investigation or punishment, not Lichess's.
Furthermore, what exactly are you referring to in #1 when you talk about Lichess getting involved with sexual misconduct?
> Brian-E Thanks for taking the time to respond. All crimes, including sexual assault, should be taken seriously. The issue is that Lichess is not the proper place to decide who is and isn't guilty.
If this is true, then can't the victim just call the police? It's the victim's responsibility to ensure that the accused faces some sort of investigation or punishment, not Lichess's.
Furthermore, what exactly are you referring to in #1 when you talk about Lichess getting involved with sexual misconduct?
@hangmysack Could you please send a link, to the matter you are referring to?
I am confused, as to what this thread is about.
I am confused, as to what this thread is about.
@hangmysack said in #1:
> But i did not appreciate the way they got involved in ALLEGATIONS of sexual misconduct.
how do you know lichess got involved in allegations of sexual misconduct? was that established in a court of law? there's a little thing called "presumption of innocence". it means that you cannot post topics about what lichess supposedly did or didn't do, unless it was proven in court first. and the burden of proof in that court will have to be on the accuser, that's in the constitution.
i do not appreciate that you are playing judge, jury and executioner here. let the courts do their work, it is not your job to establish who did what. you cannot just act on hearsay. so until we have a guilty verdict, i hereby formally request that you quit posting about this.
> But i did not appreciate the way they got involved in ALLEGATIONS of sexual misconduct.
how do you know lichess got involved in allegations of sexual misconduct? was that established in a court of law? there's a little thing called "presumption of innocence". it means that you cannot post topics about what lichess supposedly did or didn't do, unless it was proven in court first. and the burden of proof in that court will have to be on the accuser, that's in the constitution.
i do not appreciate that you are playing judge, jury and executioner here. let the courts do their work, it is not your job to establish who did what. you cannot just act on hearsay. so until we have a guilty verdict, i hereby formally request that you quit posting about this.
@NaturalBornTraveller said in #6:
> @hangmysack Could you please send a link, to the matter you are referring to?
> I am confused, as to what this thread is about.
lichess.org/@/lichess/blog/breaking-the-silence/ZNTniBEA
> @hangmysack Could you please send a link, to the matter you are referring to?
> I am confused, as to what this thread is about.
lichess.org/@/lichess/blog/breaking-the-silence/ZNTniBEA
@glbert your "argument" doesn't work... nice attempt at "Uno reverse" card though
@hangmysack said in #9:
> @glbert your "argument" doesn't work... nice attempt at "Uno reverse" card though
go on ...? i am not convinced yet that you are in a position to pass judgement over which "arguments" work and which don't. you seem to be plenty judgemental for someone who doesn't like judging. you seem to be under the impression that you are the only one who is allowed to make decisions of any consequence.
> @glbert your "argument" doesn't work... nice attempt at "Uno reverse" card though
go on ...? i am not convinced yet that you are in a position to pass judgement over which "arguments" work and which don't. you seem to be plenty judgemental for someone who doesn't like judging. you seem to be under the impression that you are the only one who is allowed to make decisions of any consequence.
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