^ regarding questions as to why nothing's being done to stop it, i think people implicitly understand how little control they have over the us government and have to a large extent been conditioned to accept it
Is America a democracy?
A traitor according to Merriam Webster is someone who betrays another's trust or is false to an obligation or duty. He could reasonably be said to be a traitor to his employer the NSA or the government. In order to say that he is a traitor to his countrymen you have to first assume that he has an obligation to those countrymen to help the NSA illegally hide things from them, or that his countrymen "trust" him to help the NSA illegally hide the government's crimes from them.
Imo it boils down to a question of what defines the "country" he's supposedly a traitor to; its population or the government. If my government commited war crime and lied about it, sent me and my friends off to kill and die under the false pretense that it has something to do with protecting my family from some make-believe threat, I certainly want to know about it.
Governments typically take the attitude that opposition to their crimes is treason because they ARE the country ergo their interests are the country's interests. That certainly the case here. If you agree he's a traitor if you disagree he's not.
EDIT: The notion that he's a coward is ludicrous. Whether you think what he did is good or bad that's just ludicrous. He voluntarily drew the ire of a government that tortures people at black sites. He could've just done his job and collected his pay check and avoided all of this. I can have a fairly civil disagreement with people who for some reason think that what he did was wrong. People who claim he's a coward should be ashamed of themselves.
Imo it boils down to a question of what defines the "country" he's supposedly a traitor to; its population or the government. If my government commited war crime and lied about it, sent me and my friends off to kill and die under the false pretense that it has something to do with protecting my family from some make-believe threat, I certainly want to know about it.
Governments typically take the attitude that opposition to their crimes is treason because they ARE the country ergo their interests are the country's interests. That certainly the case here. If you agree he's a traitor if you disagree he's not.
EDIT: The notion that he's a coward is ludicrous. Whether you think what he did is good or bad that's just ludicrous. He voluntarily drew the ire of a government that tortures people at black sites. He could've just done his job and collected his pay check and avoided all of this. I can have a fairly civil disagreement with people who for some reason think that what he did was wrong. People who claim he's a coward should be ashamed of themselves.
@chessprimus said in #12:
> Is America a democracy?
if democracy is rule by the people, then no. the people in united states have essentially no ability to directly impact policy. they have the ability to influence who the human faces are that represent the government but the impact that has on their own actual lives is extremely minimal at best, especially outside of the more surface-level social issues
> Is America a democracy?
if democracy is rule by the people, then no. the people in united states have essentially no ability to directly impact policy. they have the ability to influence who the human faces are that represent the government but the impact that has on their own actual lives is extremely minimal at best, especially outside of the more surface-level social issues
@lilyhollow said in #15:
> if democracy is rule by the people, then no. the people in united states have essentially no ability to directly impact policy. they have the ability to influence who the human faces are that represent the government but the impact that has on their own actual lives is extremely minimal at best, especially outside of the more surface-level social issues
Yeah, but it's kind of indirect democracy. That is defined as people voting for others to represent their opinion. They aren't directly making choices, but people they voted do it for them.
> if democracy is rule by the people, then no. the people in united states have essentially no ability to directly impact policy. they have the ability to influence who the human faces are that represent the government but the impact that has on their own actual lives is extremely minimal at best, especially outside of the more surface-level social issues
Yeah, but it's kind of indirect democracy. That is defined as people voting for others to represent their opinion. They aren't directly making choices, but people they voted do it for them.
@WS83 said in #14:
> EDIT: The notion that he's a coward is ludicrous. Whether you think what he did is good or bad that's just ludicrous. He voluntarily drew the ire of a government that tortures people at black sites. He could've just done his job and collected his pay check and avoided all of this. I can have a fairly civil disagreement with people who for some reason think that what he did was wrong. People who claim he's a coward should be ashamed of themselves.
The former secretary of state John Kerry called him like this. Proof:
www.nbcnews.com/politics/first-read/kerry-snowden-coward-traitor-n116366
> EDIT: The notion that he's a coward is ludicrous. Whether you think what he did is good or bad that's just ludicrous. He voluntarily drew the ire of a government that tortures people at black sites. He could've just done his job and collected his pay check and avoided all of this. I can have a fairly civil disagreement with people who for some reason think that what he did was wrong. People who claim he's a coward should be ashamed of themselves.
The former secretary of state John Kerry called him like this. Proof:
www.nbcnews.com/politics/first-read/kerry-snowden-coward-traitor-n116366
@HelSpi said in #16:
> Yeah, but it's kind of indirect democracy. That is defined as people voting for others to represent their opinion. They aren't directly making choices, but people they voted do it for them.
they dont though. that's the point; they dont actually make choices in the interests of the people.
> Yeah, but it's kind of indirect democracy. That is defined as people voting for others to represent their opinion. They aren't directly making choices, but people they voted do it for them.
they dont though. that's the point; they dont actually make choices in the interests of the people.
This is a good reason why some countries and private companies, have independent whistle blowing organisations and an Ombudsman.
So that people don't have to flee their country/company for exposing illegal or unwanted activity caused by governments and companies.
However in this extreme case, I am not sure, if it could have helped exposure to the governmental crime. Especially not in a corrupt country like the USA.
Personally, under those circumstances he had, I think he did the right thing.
He can't go back, because he won't be given a fair trial.
And if I remember correctly, he have stated, that he would return, only if he is given a trial by a fair and neutral jury.
But the government doesn't want to promise him a jury trial. And most likely, his trial would be closed for journalists and private citizens.
So that people don't have to flee their country/company for exposing illegal or unwanted activity caused by governments and companies.
However in this extreme case, I am not sure, if it could have helped exposure to the governmental crime. Especially not in a corrupt country like the USA.
Personally, under those circumstances he had, I think he did the right thing.
He can't go back, because he won't be given a fair trial.
And if I remember correctly, he have stated, that he would return, only if he is given a trial by a fair and neutral jury.
But the government doesn't want to promise him a jury trial. And most likely, his trial would be closed for journalists and private citizens.
@HelSpi said in #17:
> The former secretary of state John Kerry called him like this. Proof:
> www.nbcnews.com/politics/first-read/kerry-snowden-coward-traitor-n116366
I didn't know that but it doesn't surprise me. That's very much in line with what I think about the man.
> The former secretary of state John Kerry called him like this. Proof:
> www.nbcnews.com/politics/first-read/kerry-snowden-coward-traitor-n116366
I didn't know that but it doesn't surprise me. That's very much in line with what I think about the man.
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