War or Peace

@Noflaps said in #30:
> @MagnusSon0fCarI , if many people in Arizona and New Mexico started trying to break away from the United States, would Mexico be entitled to invade America? Even if America's politicians weren't wonderful people?

No, they wouldn't be entitled to and I don't support Russia's invasion.

But we're in this situation now and what I'm saying is it's not a cause worth fighting for, and Ukraine aren't able to win anyway. In the last year they promised a major counteroffensive yet didn't regain any ground.

So it's better to agree a peace deal, most importantly to save the lives of Russians and Ukrainians

Also I would highly recommend Tucker Carlsen's interview with Putin if you haven't already seen it

That's not up to us, @MagnusSon0fCarI .

Ukrainians seem to love their country. I suspect Poles will be found to love their country, too, if invasions are repeated.

Recall Winston Churchill's famous speech about how long and how hard the English would fight if England were invaded. He wasn't joking. And I don't think he was mistaken. England is not the only country beloved by its citizens. Civilization works that way.

Three cases of Putler's useful idiots :

1) “I may disappoint you, but as far as we know, Navalny indeed died as a result of a blood clot. And this has been more or less confirmed,” Budanov ( head of the Ukrainian Military Intelligence Service (GUR))
told journalists on the sidelines at the “Ukraine. Year of 2024” forum on Sunday. "This wasn't sourced from the internet, but, unfortunately, natural [causes],” he added.26 Feb 2024

Look -truth lover !! All civilized Free World knows what to cry and he tries to spoil efforts ...

2) General Valery Zaluzhny - dared to say that U. offensive 'zaszla w tupik' = stalemate ; stalmate = end of game /war ---peacemonger ?? so he was removed -now away in London , MI 5/6 will take care closely -no again such defetism...

3) Kliczko ---------Volodymyr Zelensky's decision to remove General Valery Zaluzhny from his post as commander of the Armed Forces was a serious mistake, according to Vitali Klitschko. The Kiev mayor said in a recent interview that the change shocked every Ukrainian. - The president should have explained the reasons for the decision, he added.
In an interview published Tuesday with the Italian daily La Repubblica, Vitali Klitschko stated: - Zaluzhny successfully defended our country for two years against the largest and most powerful military in the world, and each of us associates him as our most important defender.

- The president should have explained the reasons for the decision, which shocked every Ukrainian. Many are in shock," Klitschko added.

He further assessed: - Unfortunately, also during martial law, when we need the unity of all political forces and citizens - because this is the tool to win the war - the political struggle continues.

- Some politicians put their ambitions above the interests of the state," the Kyiv mayor noted.

' Ukrainians seem to love their country ' - yes , thats why half of them ,mostly young, left Ukraine -first mostly to Poland (1/3 of biggest PL cities = Ukrainians now- some even dare to say 'from Caucas to Szczecin one big Ukraine'....) and other states . Luckily Kiev Gov. closed routes of escape for avoidning draft lovers of Ukraine...

how hard the English would fight - ---- = till the last soldier of its allies ....

beloved England = esp by scots and irishman = thankfull for 'holodomors ' created by England....
England rules over the seas ,fleet, was on White slave labor -own citizens - read how recruited was crew of ships...

Blood of Slavs- so far Ukrainians , next Poles- will keep high in green indexes of London and New York Stock Exchange .
This was planned way back in past , well ... , 4 U now I stop in 1970-ties= Zbig Brzezinski 'Great Chessboard' (=world), his son is ambassador in Warsow now.
Now polish Foreign Affairs Minister R. Sikorski as a young politician was vehemotly critisized by press/TV in Poland =99% jewish and/or german owned ....but when he married Ann Applebaum USA member of Bilderberg , instantly NO critique in press and big future open...(.You will hear about him-appointed to lead PL into war ....)
just like plandemic COVID terror evaporized miracously instantly when Putler invaded Ukraine and bilions of unvacced , untested refugees welcomed in Poland...

Yes, @Cezrun64 , there are indeed many Ukrainian refugees.

However, as even brief online research will readily reveal from an apparently unbiased source:

"90% of Ukrainian refugees are women and children, while most Ukrainian men between the ages of 18 and 60 are banned from leaving the country."

So it's true, many women and children have had to flee Ukraine. The men have stayed behind to fight, except for men whose age would fairly excuse them from needing to do so.

So why should women and children be forced to flee their homes? What noble cause makes this necessary?

@Noflaps said in #30:
> if many people in Arizona and New Mexico started trying to break away from the United States, would Mexico be entitled to invade America if America tried to quell a civil uprising within its own borders?

If many people in Kosovo started trying to break away from Serbia, would the United States be entitled to attack Serbia if Serbia tried to quell a terrorist uprising within its own borders?

@OctoPinky, I am uncertain if you are attempting to argue in favor of Russia's incursion into Ukraine, by suggesting that America did something similar in Serbia. If you are, then I would respond as follows:

Please tell us when The United States invaded Serbia with a vast number of troops and artillery and destroyed its major cities, leading to millions of refugees and a vast number of casualties. I admit that I don't recall such an occurrence in real life, so kindly remind me if you know of one. If you can't identify one, then I have to wonder what occurrence you are attempting to use in order, perhaps, to argue by analogy.

Are you thinking of NATO's brief and limited bombing campaign in the former Yugoslavia in 1999? The one followed, I believe, by the entry of BOTH Russian and NATO troops, in small numbers (and coming from almost 30 different countries -- nor just America -- due to genuine international concern), into Kosovo to keep the peace? Because if you are, that brief conflict does not seem remotely analogous either in scope, or in goal, or in international support, to what has happened in Ukraine.

As I hope you'll agree, America has not seized any portion of "Serbia" -- or, if I'm mistaken, please identify America's Serbian land, so that I may be enlightened.

And even if it were analogous, are you suggesting that you approve of NATO bombing other countries, and wish to furnish NATO's action as a salutary example of what should be done? (Or were you perhaps arguing AGAINST NATO's action, without any implications for Ukraine? If so, then any response I might offer would feel more uncertain, admittedly).

If Russia had sent in less than 4,000 troops to keep the peace in a small portion of Ukraine and not driven out millions of refugees and led to mass casualties and ruined cities, perhaps your apparently attempted analogy could be more readily understood.

I'll await, in good faith, attempts to explain; fairness and objectivity are important, and I am not all-knowing, to say the least. So I will earnestly consider what you or anyone else has to say about this matter.

@Noflaps said in #39:
> I am uncertain if you are attempting to argue in favor of Russia's incursion into Ukraine, by suggesting that America did something similar in Serbia.

Not at all. If I wanted to remember a similar operation, it would be Iraq (where, just for the record, Ukraine participated as an invader). After all, Serbia was never able to counter that attack. I would not be surprised if, facing stronger resistance, NATO would have carried a massive offensive.

I'm only noting that when the #1 superpower in the World decides -not hypotetically- to sidestep every international law and right, the least we can expect is everybody doing (or trying to do) the same. And not only Russia: just in my Euro-Mediterranean area, Turkey has invaded parts of Syria and Iraq (not to mention Cyprus), Israel has annexed Golan Heights and East Jerusalem, Morocco has annexed Western Sahara, United States is targeting members of the Iraqi armed forces in Iraq... all this is an absolute mess, and I don't even know what is going in Africa and Asia.

> As I hope you'll agree, America has not seized any portion of "Serbia"

For Serbians, I guess losing a good chunk of land to have Kosovo with a huge NATO base is quite the same, technicallities aside.

What Russia did in 2014-2022 was quite similar and could have been defused in a peaceful way, but none of the major actors seemed to be interested.